Maloney, Hendrick & Many Others

Entries: 67729    Updated: 2013-08-18 15:43:29 UTC (Sun)    Owner: James Maloney

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  • ID: I18958
  • Name: Isolde (Iseult) de Mortimer 1 2 3
  • Sex: F
  • Birth: BEF 1266 in Chelmarsh, Bridgnorth, Shropshire, England 4
  • Death: AFT 1336 in Upper Arley, Kidderminster, Worcestershire, England 5 2
  • Note:
    Isolda, m. 1st to Walter Balem, and 2ndly, to Hugh, Lord Audley. [Sir Bernard Burke, Dormant, Abeyant, Forfeited and Extinct Peerages, Burke's Peerage Ltd, London, England, 1883, p. 383, Mortimer, Barons Mortimer, of Wigmore, Earls of March]
    ------------------------------
    Jim Weber - Douglas Richardson in the following post to SGM, 25 Jan 2002, makes an argument that Isolde/Iseult was a daughter of Hugh de Mortimer & Agatha de Ferrers, instead of Edmund de Mortimer by his 1st wife (as CP & many other sources have it). Although her parents are still uncertain (no direct evidence), the case of her not being a daughter of Edmund (or at least a legitimate daughter) is strengthened by the fact that, according to a post by Paul Reed (see notes under Edmund), Edmund was a cleric in the church until Nov 1282, and is not likely to be father of Isolde (who was certainly born before then).

    As pointed out by J.W. Flank, Douglas Richardson has since changed his opinion, thinking that Iseult is a sister of Edmund, but I don't think that Iseult was born as early as Douglas is now thinking that she was born. The relationship between Edmund & Iseult is based on the fact that Edmund gave rights to Upper Arley to Iseult for the remainder of her life, but Edmund was renting Much Marcle from Iseult's 1st husband Walter Balun, and, when Walter died, Iseult claimed an interest in Much Marcle (probably dowry rights), so the transference of Upper Marcle to Iseult could have been a "business deal" between Edmund & Iseult to replace her dowry rights. I am keeping the ancestry as proposed below until more information surfaces:

    From: Douglas Richardson (royalancestry@msn.com)
    Subject: Solution to the identity of Iseult. wife of Hugh de Audley
    Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
    Date: 2002-01-25 01:32:48 PST

    Dear Newsgroup ~

    Last week I expressed my doubts that Iseult, wife of Hugh de Audley, of Stratton (in Stratton Audley), co. Oxford, was the daughter of Edmund de Mortimer, Baron of Wigmore, co. Hereford. I made that assessment based on a careful review of the evidence, which, in my opinion, simply did not support such a filiation.

    Upon further review of the evidence offline with Chris Phillips, we established that the sole source for Iseult's parentage appears to be one of the unpublished "Additional Manuscripts" kept by the British Library. Chris has since examined the manuscript in question and determined that either the manuscript or folio number cited by modern sources is in error. As such, it doesn't seem possible any time soon for us to learn the nature of the information supposedly recorded in the Additional Manuscripts material. Regardless, while that avenue has reached a dead end, it appears another door has opened which appears to provide the correct solution to the problem.

    Tonight while I was going through the biography of Sir James de Audley in George Frederick Beltz' interesting book, Memorials of the Most Noble Order of the Garter (1841), I discovered a statement pertaining to Sir James de Audley's family, which almost certainly relates to relatives of his grandmother, Iseult de Audley. Beltz states that Sir James de Audley was severely wounded in the Battle of Poitiers in 1356. According to Beltz, Froissart (a contemporary historian) relates that "upon his return to his lodging, our knight [Sir James de Audley] sent for his brother sir Peter de Audeley, sir Bartholomew Burghershe, sir Stephen Cosington, the lord Willoughby, and sir Ralph de Ferrers, who, he says, were of his blood and lineage."

    This list of Audley kinsmen is similar to the list of people Nat Taylor posted last week in the Bohun-Basset consanguinity case, in that the people named were probably distantly related to one another, making it somewhat difficult to pinpoint the exact link tying the people together. Not surprisingly, in a footnote, Beltz adds: "... Sir James' relationship to the four last-named knights does not appear," showing that Beltz was stymied in his attempt to determine the common link between the five individuals.

    Reviewing the list of the men called kinsmen by Sir James de Audley, a good deal is known of the ancestry of three of these individuals, namely Sir Bartholomew Burghersh, 4th Lord Burghersh; John de Willoughby, 2nd Lord Willoughby of Eresby; and Sir Ralph de Ferrers. Reviewing the ancestry of Sir Bartholomew Burghersh, for example, it is apparent at once that he was great-grandson of Edmund de Mortimer, lst Lord Mortimer, who is the alleged father of Sir James de Audley's grandmother, Iseult. This would surely be strong confirmation that Iseult de Audley definitely had a Mortimer connection.

    Reviewing the ancestry of the other two individuals, John de Willoughby and Ralph de Ferrers, however, it shows they possess no such link to the Mortimer family. Rather, they both descend from William de Ferrers, 5th Earl of Derby (died 1254). Ralph de Ferrers was grandson of the 5th Earl, while John de Willoughby was great-grandson of the 5th Earl.

    Given the common link between John de Willoughby and Ralph de Ferrers, it is difficult to explain their intended tie to Sir James de Audley, if in fact Sir James' grandmother, Iseult, was the daughter of Edmund de Mortimer, lst Lord Mortimer, as alleged in print. Iseult as Edmund's daughter would seemingly have no connection to William de Ferrers, 5th Earl of Derby. However, checking the accounts of the various families, a neat solution has appeared on the horizon. My Mortimer family notes show that Edmund de Mortimer had an uncle, Hugh de Mortimer (died 1273) of Chelmarsh, who married Agatha de Ferrers (died 1306), daughter of William de Ferrers, 5th Earl of Derby. If Iseult de Audley was the child of Hugh and Agatha, it would give her grandson, Sir James de Audley, the needed links to both the Mortimer and Ferrers families. Also, it would solve the obvious chronology problem of Iseult being Edmund de Mortimer's daughter.

    When anyone has a moment, I'd appreciate comments on this placement of Iseult as a member of the Mortimer family. By placing Iseult as Hugh de Mortimer's daughter, she becomes granddaughter rather than great-granddaughter of the ever popular lady on the newsgroup, Gladys Dhu. For convenience sake, I've posted below the lengthy list of colonial immigrants who descend from Iseult, wife of Hugh de Audley.

    In closing, I wish to express my thanks to Chris Phillips for his continued efforts in helping to solve these difficult and longstanding medieval problems. Friendship and collegiality are the two of the keys to solving the many genealogical mysteries which have long eluded us.




    Father: Hugh de Mortimer of Chelmarsh b: ABT 1234 in Wigmore, Ludlow, Herefordshire, England
    Mother: Agatha de Ferrers b: ABT 1236 in Derby, Derbyshire, England

    Marriage 1 Hugh 1st Baron de Audley of Stratton b: 1267 in Stratton Audley, Oxfordshire, England
      Children
      1. Has Children Hugh Baron de Audley 1st Earl of Gloucester b: ABT 1290 in Stratton Audley, Oxfordshire, England
      2. Has Children Alice de Audley b: 1300 in Hadley, Staffordshire, England

      Sources:
      1. Title: Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom, by G. E Cokayne, Sutton Publishing Ltd, 2000
        Note:


        Page: VI:190
      2. Author: Weis, Frederick Lewis, additions by Walter Lee Sheppard Jr.
        Title: Magna Charta Sureties 1215, 5th Ed
        Publication: Date: 1999;
        Note:
        Source Medium: Book

        Page: 150-5
      3. Title: Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom, by G. E Cokayne, Sutton Publishing Ltd, 2000
        Note:


        Page: IX:283 note (m), XIV:488
      4. Title: Newsgroup: soc.genealogy.medieval, at groups - google.com
        Note:
        Source Medium: Electronic

        Page: Douglas Richardson, 22 Oct 2002
      5. Author: Weber, Jim
        Title: The Phillips, Weber, Kirk, & Staggs families of the Pacific Northwest
        Note:
        Source Medium: Ancestry.com

        downloaded periodically 2001-2006. Updated frequently, with many sources.

        Text: citing Memorials of the Danvers Family, F.N. MacNamara, 1895, p,.71
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