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Note: Grace Jensen <gjjensen@@pop.mindspring.com> in an e-mail message 9-19-99 said that John's tombstone said 6-22-1776. This seems very possible since Hannah and John, his parents, would be in their mid 20's by then. John is buried at Ebenezer Cemetery in Ramer, Montgomery Co., Alabama. I want to thank Grace Jensen for the information on this line. In checking over the June, 1850 Census for Montgomery County, AL, I find that John Courtney was listed as being born in Virgina and was 73 years old, which would have made him born in 1777. I think that his tombstone has 1778 listed, but everything else you look at has his birth as 1777. As for his wife Rachel, I find her listed as being born in North Carolina and listed as 50 years old at that time. This would have made her born in 1800. On her tombstone at Ebenizer Cemetery at Ramer, AL it shows that she died in 1879 and was about 82 years old. This would have made her born in 1797. John Courtney's first three children, John Curtis Courtney, b. 1807, Mary Hannah, b. 1809, and Anson Hiram, b. 1813 or 1819, a Census shows him to be born in 1813, but it is 1819 on his tombstone. John & Rachel had Matilda in 1824. I think what I am trying to resolve is whether or not Rachel was the mother of John's first three children. P.S. The paper from the Archives in Montgomery that I mentioned above was from, Montgomery County, AL Records, Vol. 238. Also, something else mentioned at the bottom was that Rachel's deathdate was October 26, 1878. Confusing to say the least. Tom, I really do not feel as though Rachel was the mother of Anson Hiram Courtney, of course I could be wrong. According to the 1850 Census he would have been born in 1813 in South Carolina and a date of 1819 is shown on his tombstone. As we all know dates can be very confusing. As I stated in my e-mail as of July 16th, Rachel was listed on the 1850 Census as being 50 years old making her born in 1800. Her tombstone has a death date of October 25,1879, and states that she was around 82 years old. All of John's and Rachel's children were born in Alabama beginning with Matilda who was born in 1824. There was a lapse of five years between the birth of Anson Hiram and Matilda if Anson Hiram was born in 1819, and a lapse of 11 years if he was born in 1813. I am so confused concerning this matter and would very much like to get it settled one way or another. I think that I will start trying to locate a marriage record for them. I checked at the Archives in Montgomery once and found nothing. It may be that there will have to be some checking done in South Carolina and Mississippi. An aunt and I will be going to North & South Carolina in the fall doing some research and visiting relatives. Our next research trip will be in Mississippi sometime after the one to the Carolinas. The last e-mail from you is very interesting. I am confused about the second Rachel, born 1807. I have never run across her or anything stating that she was a daughter of John Hiram and his first wife (Mary?). Although as you stated, the time frame would make one think that she might be a daughter. Speaking of John Hiram, he was a son of John Courtney and Hannah Curtis. He and his first wife were my 3rd. gt. grandparents. Their children as I have them were; Mary Hannah (Polly) Courtney, b. 7 April 1807, SC, d. 4 November 1879, Montgomery Co., AL, m. John Hudgens in Montgomery Co., AL; John Curtis Courtney, b. 16 April 1809, SC, d. 12 October 1885, Verbena, Chilton Co., AL, m. Carolyn Elizabeth Garner in Montgomery Co., AL; Anson Hiram Courtney, b. 4 March 1813/1819, SC, d. 6 August 1894, Montgomery Co., AL, m. Mary Ann Rebecca Davis. I have shown the date of my gt. gt. grandfather, Anson Hiram Courtney, 1813/1819. His tombstone has 1819, but on the Census' that I have checked it works out to be 1813. John Curtis was not a doctor for very long. I think that he became a planter, especially after he moved to Verbena. John Hiram and his second wife Rachel had nine children. I wish that I could find any info that shows that John and Hannah had their children with them when they went to Mississippi. John Hiram would only have been around two years old at the time. Do you see parents leaving their children that age behind? If John H. did go to Mississippi did he marry in Mississippi and then return to South Carolina where his first three children were born? Or did he return to South Carolina and marry there? His nine children by his second wife Rachel were all born in Alabama, the first one in 1824. I have had contact with Jack Curtis. In fact I sent him a small amount of info when he contacted me for info for his book. I bought the books from him and the information that I had sent was not the same. In fact some of it was rather confusing. It was almost as though someone else had sent him material and he used theirs, which in my opinion was incorrect. I wrote to Jack and pointed out the things that were incorrect. That is something concerning John Jones. Please keep me updated on any information you might find pertaining to that. As you say someone must have seen the info and jumped to conclusions. I just wonder if our ancestors would appreciate our digging back into their lives, I hope not. For years I have wondered why I did not have larger earlobes than I have. I didn't see any of my relations with ears like mine. Two years ago I met some new cousins for the first time, some from California and some from south Alabama. One of the cousins brought along many old pictures for everyone to see. Lo and behold, the very first picture that I looked at had the same shape ears as I and eyes the same almond shape. This was on my Knight side of the house, of course my gt. grandmother Ordelia Victoria Courtney's grandparents were also Knights. Then, I have a picture of Mary Jane Courtney, daughter of John Curtis Courtney. We also have the same almond eyes. I have noticed the eyes also on my mother's side of the house, but I have not found the ears. Since Mary Hannah (Polly) Courtney and Anson Hiram Courtney were my gt. gt. grandparents, I guess anything could happen. We are a mixed up bunch of people. Tom, I would very much appreciate it if you could send me the info on the woman who sent in the material on the other Rachel Courtney. It would be interesting to know where she got her information. Thank you for the following information. I am afraid that I am unable to help clear things as to how they fit in. I have another puzzle for you. A second cousin of mine twice removed named CASSIE E. CONE, b. 1874, d. Jan. 11, 1935, married HENRY E. COURTNEY in Wilcox Co., AL on Jan. 7, 1897. Theyhad four children that I know of, ROY B., JESSE, JOHN, and ROLAND. I would certainly like to find out who HENRY was. I only heard years ago that she was not their mother, plus on the bottom of a sheet showing the estate of John, which I got at the Archives years ago, it states that John's first wife was Hannah Curtis, which we know that is incorrect as she was his mother, and John's second wife was Rachel. For many years people have gotten confused about Hannah Curtis, probably due to the fact that our John had the same first name as his father. All of this is confusing and I do feel that we should all endeavor to try and get to the bottom of it don't you? I know that I would like to as it involves two of my gt. gt. grandparents, Mary Hannah and Anson Hiram. JOHN HIRAM COURTNEY b. 22 June 1776 on tombstone, I have found it 1777 in most other places. The other info on deathdate & place is correct. 1st. marriage-UNKNOWN CHILDREN; MARY 'POLLY' HANNAH COURTNEY-- (SHE WAS MY GT. GT. GRANDMOTHER) b. 7 April 1807 in SC, d. 04 November 1833, Ramer, Mtgy. Co., AL, m. JOHN HUDGENS, abt. 1825, b. 2 May 1806, GA, d. 18 June 1873 Both are buried at Ebenizer Cem., Ramer, AL JOHN CURTIS COURTNEY-- He did not remain a doctor for long, he was engaged in farming. Also Verbena, AL is in Chilton Co., AL and not Mtgy. b. 16 April 1809, SC, d. 12 October 1885, buried along with his wife at Verbena, Chilton Co., AL. He & Carolyn were married 20 Nov. 1833 at Ramer, Mtgy. Co., AL. Carolyn b. 15 May 1819, Mtgy., Co., AL d. 11 March 1908 ANSON HIRAM COURTNEY-- (HE WAS MY GT-GT GRANDFATHER) b. 04 March 1813 in SC. His tombstone has his birth as 1819 but from the census' I have studied, it figures out to be 1813 (example; On the 1870 Mtgy. Co., AL Census it states that he was 57 years old. To me that adds up to 1813.) m. MARY ANN REBECCA DAVIS 08 Dec 1844 in Mtgy. Co., AL, b. 13 April 1824, Mtgy. Co., AL, d. 30 Jan 1897, buried at Ebenizer Cem., Ramer, Mtgy. Co., AL JOHN HIRAM'S SECOND WIFE--RACHEL It has been said that her surname was EVENS, also that it was MONROE b. abt. 1797 NC, d. 25 Oct 1879 in Mtgy. Co., AL. Both are buried at Ebenizer Cem., Ramer, AL. On Rachel's tombstone it states that she was about 82 years old. Eighty-two from 1879 turns out to be 1797 as the possible date that she was born. CHILDREN: MATILDA COURTNEY-- Her husband SIMON RUSSELL was born abt. 1794, SC. MATILDA was his second wife. (Other info correct.) GEORGE WASHINGTON COURTNEY-- b. 19 May 1825, Mtgy. Co., AL, d. 19 May 1864, Lynchburg, VA, (CSA), m. 02 Nov 1854, Ramer, Mtgy. Co., AL to ELIZABETH JANE SUMMERLIN, b. 1830, Mtgy. Co., AL DANIEL M. COURTNEY-- b. 1827, Ramer, Mtgy. Co.,AL, d. Texas, m. 19 Feb 1861, Mtgy. Co., AL, m. MARY M. RUSSELL, b. 1841, Ramer, Mtgy. Co., AL, d. 1897 THOMAS JAMES COURTNEY-- b. 1829, Ramer, Mtgy. Co., AL, m. 09 Sep 1860, Mtgy. Co., AL, LOUISA A. RUSSELL, b 1839, Mtgy. Co., AL ELIZABETH CASSANDRA COURTNEY-- b. Mtgy. Co., AL and not Mtgy. Co., Texas. The other info is correct. JAMES J. COURTNEY-- b. 1836, Ramer, Mtgy.Co., AL, d. bef. 1879 in Louisanna, m. P. M. SUMMERLIN, 24 October 1850, Ramer, Mtgy. Co., AL NANCY C. COURTNEY-- b. 08 June 1839 at Ramer, Mtgy. Co., AL, TOM, I JUST NOTICED SOMETHING IN CHECKING OVER THE MARRIAGE RECORDS THAT I HAVE. I HAVE TWO NANCY C. COURTNEYS. ONE MARRIED JOHN C. CRITTENDEN, 02 Nov 1854, Mtgy., Co., AL, AND THE OTHER NANCY C. MARRIED WILLIAM R. SUMMERLIN, 2 Nov 1854, Mtgy. Co., AL. I will see what I can find out about this and let you know. Would you happen to know anything? I can connect a cousin by e-mail in Florida and see if she knows anything. ROBERT NEWTON COURTNEY-- b. 14 Feb 1840 at Ramer, Mtgy. Co., AL, d. 01 Jan 1929 in Biloxi, MS, m. 1st. ELIZABETH JANE CRITTENDON, 11 July 1861, m. 2nd. ANNIE H. MARTIN MONROE COURTNEY-- b. 18 May 1842, Ramer, Mtgy. Co., AL, d. Nov. 1926, Covington Co., AL, m. Ist. E. SUMMERLIN, 2nd. MARY GARDNER, 11 Dec. 1872, Ramer, Mtgy., AL., m. 2nd. SUSANNAH A BUCKELOW, 04 April 1880, Crenshaw Co., AL, b. 16 Jan 1854, Mtgy., Co., AL, d, April 1924, Covington Co., AL Because of my having two gt. gt. grandparents who were brother & sister, my grandparents were very close cousins. I have finally figured it out about NANCY C. COURTNEY. She must have married twice. The contents from an LDS Record is what I sent to you. Looking further I found my marriage records from the Archives in Montgomery. It shows that NANCY C. COURTNEY married WILLIAM R. SUMMERLIN, 02 Nov 1854 and I have a notation on the page that there was a double wedding ceremony with GEORGE W. COURTNEY and ELIZABETH JANE SUMMERLIN in Montgomery Co., AL. NANCY married JOHN E. CRITTENDEN, 21 June 1866 in Mtgy. Co., AL. Yes, I have had questions about the John Courtney, Jr. as to who exactly were they talking about. I have often wondered if he could have been my John. As to my John's middle name, Hiram, I have also wondered about it, also was his first wifes name "Mary", or did he have only one wife Rachel? Where is the proof that "Hiram" was his middle name? I know that his first child was Mary Hannah. Was the Mary after her mother and the Hannah after her grandmother? John Curtis was named after the Johns and Curtis was Hannah's surname before marriage. I don't know where my gt. gt. grandfather Anson Hiram got the name Anson, but the Hiram, I suppose, was after his father. Don't you believe that John and Hannah had my John with them on the trip to MS? He would have been around two years old and I cannot believe that they would have left a child behind in SC. I feel that he must have been in MS and possibly went back to SC, married, and had his first three children there. All of his other children were born in Montgomery Co. and his first child by his second wife was Matilda born in 1824. Tom, I copied the following from Jack's book, part of it was missing. This transaction between John, Sr. and John, Jr. is most confusing. Since my John was John, Sr's first son, I wouldn't think that he would have another son and name him John, Jr., do you? I just feel that my John must have been back in MS by 1813. MISSISSIPPI TERRITORY, AMITE COUNTY---- This indenture made this thirtyeth day of March, in the year of our Lord, one thousand eight hundred and thirteen, between JOHN COURTNEY,SR. of the Territory and County aforesaid, of the one part, and JOHN COURTNEY,JR, of the said place, and County of the other part. Witnessed; that the said JOHN COURTNEY,SR. for and in consideration of the sum of thirty dollars, to him in hand paid: by the said JOHN COURTNEY, JR. the receipt is hereby acknowledged, have bargained, sold, conveyed, and confirmed and by these presents do bargain, sell, convey, and confirm unto the said JOHN COURTNEY, JR. a certain tract of land or parcel of land lying and being in the Amite County-- The rest of the paper was missing, but it was signed by JOHN COURTNEY, SR the 30th day of March 1813 & Received to be recorded the 2nd April 1813. Tom, I hope that I have not caused more confusion. An aunt and I have been talking about going back to SC and NC sometime this Fall. I think now that we are going to wait until things get better up there weather wise. We have been up there twice but evidently we did not look in the right places. Yes, I will be happy to send info to you. Just keep in mind that I may have many mistakes and would certainly appreciate any imput from you. Right now I am getting material ready to mail to North Carolina on my Stephens and related familes, therefore, when I finish I will start work on yours.
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